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Above: Lake Geneva, Switzerland. At Montreux.

Fodderize v.t. 1. To break down individual components; to make fungible; to disregard difference; to render one easily substituted for another 2. To impose sub-quality goods or services upon, with little recourse 3. To cap role choices, hinder access to resources regardless of merit, and so avoid competition 4. To manage perception by propaganda-spin techniques, while concealing dispositive facts 5. To manipulate, lure, exploit, deceive


Sunday, July 29, 2012

Timeline. The Romneys Rumneys of Dalton. Timeline. Romney Surname. Fodder hitching a ride? Or the Real thing?

Romneys, or Rumneys, of Dalton.

Chronology, Timeline.
One and the Same Family, or Different?
First came Rumney.

Beginning a Rumney Timeline

Here, a chronology to see where it leads. 
Patrin Web Journal
Sources to be amended from time to time. 

1.  Timeline - Chronology.  England and Scotland context.  Weave issues and questions of Roma, Travellers, Gypsies, with Romney family, Rumney family, also plural Romneys Rumneys,  Then meld the Patrin information and our own research with Europe's violence against gypsies for centuries, and ongoing, see Timeline of Violence against Gypsies.
Was that population, under such stress, forced to assimilate or undergo ongoing prejudice and risk of death, susceptible to the message of a new religion, a new start, safety elsewhere?  Europe supplied so many converts. America was disinterested. Were the European converts Roma, in any appreciable number? Who can find out demographics?

2.  Rumney merely a surname; or an entire group of Rumnichals?  St. Mary's Parish Records show a sudden appearance of a John Rumney in 1730; but Thomas Rumney seems to root the painter George Rumney's family.  The Appleby George Rumneys behind both? No absolute clarity.  Romanichal roots likely, however. * See Appleby roots of Romney-Rumney. DNA could solve the issue of Roma roots.

Roma roots and groups remain all over Europe, having arrived in about the 12th Century: see also, Timeline; First, welcomed for their skills (metalworkers in Romania, for example), economic contribution; then, as numbers grew, vilified for their difference, nomadic ways; negatives in cultures were projected upon them, and they were and are persecuted, killed.  See Timeline of Violence against Gypsies

3.  Individuals with same name, similar name, same family or not.

Then:  Prominent George Romney or Rumney of Dalton, then many places. Rose to become Famous Portrait Painter, 18th Century. There is also George Romney or Rumney, 1730 in Dalton, arriving some point earlier. Worker. Joiner, Parish House Carpenter.
George Romney, no other designation. No esquire. No forbears at St. Mary.
Married in. Married up.  And, Henry Sidney, the Earl of Romney, a genuine 17th Century aristocrat,  no relation to the Dalton Rumneys that we can find, see "Diary" of Henry Sidney at

1.  Rumney Timeline.  
Later spelled Romney.  Romney Timeline. 
The Mitt Romney - Miles Romney Convert to Mormonism 1830's line.

Roma Life in England;  Setting Elsewhere;  
Rumneys and Romneys

1541 - Scotland. Anti-Gypsy laws are passed in Scotland, see Patrin Web Journal at (herein Patrin)

1547 - England. England's King Edward VI institutes laws against Gypsies, by then in the UK, Patrin. Seize Gypsies and brand them with a V on their chests and enslave them for two years.  Any escapee who is caught will be branded with an S and enslaved for his or her lifetime.  A Romani chapter in an English encyclopedia work has samples of the language.

1554 - England. Mary of England marries Philip of Spain, and impose death penalty for being a Gypsy, or going in the company of "Egyptians"

See the Patrin site for all the laws against Gypsies on mainland Europe, banning, killing.
These excerpt references are only to England, or Scotland

1562 - Laws passed so that Gypsies born in England and Wales can continue to live if they leave the company of other Gypsies and give up their idle and ungodly ways;  all others are to be killed and their lands and goods confiscated (does this mean they owned land before these edicts?)

1568 - Pope expels all Roma from the Catholic Church

1573 - Gypsies in Scotland are ordered to settle; or leave the country.  No more caravans.

1579 - Gypsies arrive in Wales

St. Mary's.
Marriage records begin in 1565.
Baptism records begin in 1685.
Burial records begin 1689.

1596 - Nine Gypsies at York, England, are executed for being Gypsy, but that out of some 106 condemned to death for being Gypsy and born outside England.  They (the 106) proved they were born in England. (that meant they had records?)

Continent:  persecutions continue, purges.

1642 - A George Romney was born at Appleby, see this site,  Please vet.  That spelling as Romney would be unusual for that time.  He is said to have died in 1738.  Both spellings, including Rumney, are given depending on the site.

1650's - Suffolk, England - the last Gypsies to be condemned for being Gypsy are killed.  Others are banished to America.

1660-1800 - In England, the group of Gypsies known as Romanichal (Rumnichal) "survive by working for local people who know them."  Patrin.

 1679-1682 -- Henry Sidney, later Earl of Romney, serves as ambassador to the Hague, and on close terms with William III of Orange, other notables.  See bio and diary at  The Earl of Romney line was not connected, as we can find, with any of the Appleby-Dalton Rumneys.  How was the Earl's name spelled back then?  So far, we see Romney consistently; no Rumney.

1702 - An Appleby George Rumney-Romney m. Jane Burrow at Dalton, but I do not see that marriage recorded at St. Mary's.  Does this signify the Rumney's moving to the area after the marriage?

  • Parents of John Rumney are not listed as married in the parish. Are John Rumney's parents the George Rumney and Jane Burrow, see marriage 1702?  That George is from Appleby.
Marriages:  Earliest Rumney marriage at St. Mary is recorded 1730 with marriage of John and Ann (no Romneys, just Rumneys)

1714 - British merchants and planters marketing in the Caribbean go to the Privy Council to get permission to sell Gypsies as slaves, to work in the Caribbean

1715 - In Scotland, seven Gypsies are "recorded" as deported to Virginia 

1730 John Rumney m. Ann Simpson, who also is of the parish; but listed as from Sladebank in,_George_%28DNB00%29. Ann also spelled Anne in other entries
  • Then appears another Rumney, Thomas.  Is this a brother of John, or another group? Thomas has children and is listed in the parish as father of those children.
1734 - artist George Romney born, at Beckside, Dalton-in-Furness. .

This site says that this George is the second child of John and Ann, see,_George_%28DNB00%29, but that does not fit the St. Mary's records. The Wiki also lists another son, Peter.  None of that in St.. Mary's.

There is no Rumney or Romney listed as having been baptized in St. Mary's parish in that year. See parish records.  Was the family not of that parish?  What other?  See map and plaque for portrait painter George Romney at

Children of John and Ann
1731 William bap son of John (Jno?) Rumney
1738-9 Lawrence bap son of John Rumney
1740-1  Thomas bap son of John Rumney

1738 -- another George Romney, born 1642  (spelled Romney) dies, see

Then, another adult Thomas Rumney. 
He has children the same age, roughly, as John's.
This is the line where cabinet-making is listed

Children of Thomas: George and John.  Who is the mother? Is Thomas related to John?
    • 1738  George, bap son of Thomas Rumney of Dalton.   
      •  Dates inconsistency.  George, one son of a Thomas, born 1738; another? son of a Thomas, born 1734 and this is the carpenter line, then becoming line of Painter George?
      • Can this be the same as the George Romney born 1734 at Beckside, Daltono-in-Furness, the later portrait painter. see  Problem: the baptism was delayed four years, and that would not have happened.  Babes were baptized within days of birth to save their souls.
    • 1740-1  John, bap son of Thomas Rumney of Dalton (same age about as Thomas son of John, above)
    • Did this Thomas also father, much later, another George who was baptized in 1780, and the Thomas as father is listed as a cabbinet (sic) maker?
 1742 - the Painter George Romney was sent to board with family of another painter at Dendron School

1744 - Painter George Romney is apprenticed back to his father, a cabinet maker.  Interesting - Thomas as father of George is listed as a cabinet maker. So maybe so.

1755 - Painter George Romney is reapprenticed, to a portrait-painter at Kendal.

1756 - Painter George Romney marries Mary Abbot in Kendal Parish Church. This site says she was the landlady's daughter, of no particular standing, who once nursed him back to health. See,_George_%28DNB00%29  Eventually have dtr, Ann, and son, John.  Others?  Live at Kendal?  A lifelong separation after that.

1757 - Painter George Romney starts own career, not in indentures

1759   Anne wife of John buried

Next generation of Thomas' children, the Thomas who is the son of John and Ann

1760  John Rumney m. Catharine Benson

1760 - Ann Romney, daughter of Painter George Romneyr, was born (not recorded in St. Mary's).  Cannot access records for Kendal Parish church where this George married Mary Abbot.  Ann is not mentioned by name, but her death is noted at,_George_%28DNB00%29.  Son John is named, and divided his time after his parents separated,in what appears to have been a benign arrangement for all.

1762  Margaret bap dtr of John Rumney whose abode is Moorfoot (not Dalton) (Moorfoot Hills?  Border with Scotland? Scots side?) See

1762 - Painter George Romney, then apparently in Kendal, raised money and went to London, improved self and moved in middle class circles, also professional

1763 - Painter George Romney's daughter Ann buried (Kendal?) at age 3.  Painter continues on travels, studies, returning occasionally  on work-visits.  Wife remains at Kendal.  They also have a son, John. Need Kendal records.  This one became a landed fellow at Rusland, see

1776  Thomas, house carpenter, buried, Dalton.  This looks like another line of Rumneys. 

1767  Jane Rumney m. Richard Briggs

George son of Thomas who had been bap 1738

1777  Margaret bap dtr of George Rumney, son of Thomas? no designation of occupation of father

1778  Thomas bap son of George Rumney, no designation of occupation of father

1778  John Rumney, late of Cocken, abode Kendall, buried

1779  Henry son of Thomas Rumney buried, was cabbenet (sic) maker

1780  Mystery George Rumney bap son of Thomas Rumney, cabbinet (sic) maker -- same as the Thomas a generation earlier? Fathering still possible.

Starting in 1780, English anti-Gypsy laws are gradually repealed, at least in part

Who is this Thomas Rumney the cabinet maker?

1781  Margaret Romney dtr of George Romney, carpenter, buried

1787 Eleanor bap dtr of George Rumney and Eleanor of Dalton

1789  Eleanor Romney dtr of George and Eleanor buried

1790 John bap son of George Rumney and  Eleanor of Dalton

1790 - Painter  George Romney paints horrors of incarceration, prisons, appreciates plight,

1793  Anne bap dtr of George Rumney and Eleanor of Dalton

1793  George Romney buried

1796 - John, Painter George Romney's son, is a don at Cambridge,  

1802  George Romney Esquire (!) buried, lived at Kendal.  Is this the George Romney the portrait painter, who died in 1802, see

1806  George Romney (first spelling that is not Rumney), house carpenter, m. Sarah King (witnesses are Briggses, see 1767 Jane Rumney m. Richard Briggs?)

1806  William Romney of Dalton buried

1808  Thomas bap-- son of George Rumney, occupation house carpenter,  and Sarah

1811- A Gypsy girl, Trinity Cooper, age 15, and her two brothers, "demand" to be admitted to a "ragged children" charity school near Clapham, London.  They are let in.
(No further details)

1815 Anne bap

1816 - Quaker John Hoyland calls for better treatment of Gypsies, some improvements are made, but Gypsies are still being deported to Australia as criminals.

1822 - Turnpike Act is passed in England.  Gypsies are fined who are found camping at the roadside.

1830  Thomas Backhouse of Newland, Ulverston, m. Ann Romney, spinster of Dalton (witnessses Myles Park Romney and Simon P. Dixon)

The first Gypsy horse-drawn covered wagons develop in England. 

George Borrow translates the Gospel of St. Luke into Romani, the dialect then spoken in Spain. Passion of a Gypsy Luke

  • Find details at George Borrow Studies, Passion of a Gypsy Luke,, article by Peter Missler.  The volume is kept at Santiago de Compostela, Spain.  Why was it considered so dangerous and provocative?  See site. It was locked away with other Prohibited Books, pernicious works like the Book of Common Prayer and Nostradamus, works of Voltaire, Hobbes, Milton and more, safe from the "perverse and curious eyes of liberals and libertines." Is that because the translation was provocative and non-dogmatic, or because it was in the vernacular? But even priests leaked it out.  Fine.  Now, where is a reliable English transliteration or translation?  Here is a Gutenburg book, The Gypsy Luke, but that is in Romany.  The George Borrow Society is at

1830  Brigham Young starts Mormonism in America,

  • Americans did not respond warmly.  So Mormon missionaries went overseas for converts, or to Native Americans (!). Efforts were made from the outset to convert Native Americans, for theological reasons, see Mormon and Indian, but that did not succeed for reasons discussed, see site. Today, compared to lifelong-Mormons, there are more ethnic and racial minorities as converts than as lifelong Mormons, see Mormons in America, Beliefs and Practices, Pew Forum Research.

  • Does this Mormon attraction of a new religion, new place, this appeal for the downtrodden, support the idea that European Mormon converts were in appreciable numbers earlier assimilated Roma, intermarried and blended, but still at odds, or Roma in clear identity still, or the disaffected? 
One in ten converts is black, see Portrait of Mormons, Pew Forum

1830  Miles Romney m. Elizabeth Gaitskell (witness included Eleanor Romney)
1833  Elizabeth bap dtr of Myles Rumney, occupation joiner, and  Elizabeth, Dalton
Note the Rumney and Romney spellings look interchangeable by now.

1836  James Briggs of Beckermet m. Eleanor Romney, spinster of Dalton

1841  John Dawick, labourer, m. Agnes Romney (witnesses George Romney, Ann Romney)

1841 - Miles and Elizabeth Romney and 5 children emigrate to America, as Mormons.

No more baptisms for Rumneys or Romneys, no more marriages.

1874 -Ottoman Empire.  On the Continent, Muslim Roma are given same rights as other Muslims in the Ottoman Empire.

1880's - Agricultural depression in England.  Many Roma move to squatter areas outside cities.

1885 - United States immigration policy forbids entry of Roma, and many are returned to Europe

1889 - A subgroup of Gypsies forms.  These become known as Showmen, or Circus Gypsies, who then can move about in caravans. They form guilds to oppose the anti-movable dwellings laws, and become more and more distinct from other Gypsies.  Were they earlier in mainland Europe?

1908 - Children's Act, England, requires 6 months of education for traveling Gypsy children

Then read the horrors of WWI-WWII, death camps.  Rombase. Mauthausen.

1945-1960 - England.  Gypsies begin to use motor-drawn vans, and buy land for their own stopping places

1952 - Romani Evangelical Church begins in Brittany, France

1960 - England - Caravan Sites Act, laws to extend to 1972 and prevent Gypsies from buying own land for stopping; persecutions begin again

1966 -- British Gypsy Council formed to prevent evictions and harassment. Effective?

1970 - law requiring sites be provided for Gypsies is abolished

And on to read about current steps forward and more steps back. 1983 - Gypsy Pentecostals convene in England.

No legal home anywhere, is that so?

Point being:  Harassment, prejudice, persecution continues in England as elsewhere; but at least groups are better formed to address issues, it appears?

2000 - Plymouth, England, in the context of a Race Relations (Amendment) Act,  notes these groups of Gypsies, at - Circus, Fairground and Showmen, Irish Travellers, New Travellers (referring to the 1960's movement), Romani and Roma Gypsies. Scroll down to the chart of customs, differences. See FN 1

FN 1
The histories of Roma downplay the centuries of persecution, genocide on local and national levels.  So far, it appears that an expert could delve into actual documents and find enough to support either thesis, because we see no records of Rumneys in the same form as for "Romneys".  Yet, Mitt's family was Rumney.  Mitt Romney may or may not be related at all to the famous 18th Century painter, George Romney, whose name starts out as Rumney.  Mitt's line comes from John Rumney; the painter's seems to come from Thomas Rumney, carpenter.  Are John and Thomas related.

An earlier ancestor was or was not a George Rumney, from Appleby.  Appleby was and is known for Roma populations; and in the 17th Century, there were still ongoing persecutions of Roma.

To survive, wouldn't people have to move, change names and become generic (look at all the George Rumneys, John Rumneys, names recur and recur).  And ultimately pass from an outlawed Gypsy culture to the mainstream:  move on and marry, get on the church rolls.  Is that why no marriages show at St. Mary's for Rumneys until 1730?

Cultural historians:  research please.

2.  Thesis:  The Rumneys are likely a subgroup of  the Romanichals,
 Rumnichals, Roma, Rumneys, 
who arrived in the United Kingdom in the 16th Century. 

a.  The aristocrat "Romney" family was unconnected.  Mitt Romney is a Rumney, was not a Romney.   Test.  Then weigh traits.  Ask the humanistic question: Do family members continue to grapple with issues of their forbears, and how on earth can that happen?  Fathers visited upon sons, all that.  There is no science, is there?  

b.  In the context of a group under prolonged stress, needing to survive, and to blend in as best it can in order to do that, absorption of surroundings can be useful.

How to tell if a change in view is
a) an mere unprincipled flip-flop for profit and expedience; or
 b) a reasoned reassessment; or 
c) necessary for survival, and position can revert back later when it is safe.

  • The Burgenland-Roma, after WWII, provide a petri-dish of how populations under such stress respond.  See Burgenland-Roma, search.  Some assimilate, no trace acknowledged of prior roots; some keep identity, but in time are able to rise in the surrounding culture, to degrees; some remain on fringes, targeted ongoing by prejudice, persecution.

c.  Cultural surroundings.

England in the 1730's, Europe then and in preceding centuries. Start there and vet further, at It was a time of fierce persecution of Gypsy groups on the continent, and that followed them to England and remains in many ways. There was and apparently still is no safety. To survive, groups and individuals had to hide, run, blend; or get killed or banished, deported. Another ongoing inquisition, all around us, now largely unseen here. England passes laws so Gypsies can be killed?  Move! But where.  What vestige remains in hearts and minds.  Does a vestige of a past heritage echo in a response to a preacher's call to convert to a group that wants you, to emigrate.

d. Go down to the notes and sources -- many sites ignore the setting in understanding where migrations went, why.

Did Rumneys leave Appleby to start new lives.  Were all those Mormon converts tapping into the thousands of hidden Roma heritage people, already uprooted. Who will search that? See the chronology: no wonder a preacher on a corner offering a new life in America would be a magnet.  Cultural historians:  arise.  Help us out here.  It is not enough to say that someone does not have a heritage because it was long-ago hidden. DNA -- that would be a start.  But too late, except for Mitt.  He could help us out here. Swab a cheek for research, Mitt.

e.  Can we trust articles from Wiki? Vet. Check its information at Fact Sheets on Roma History.    Wiki refers to no modern Romneys at that article, and no political angles incorporating Mitt.  Does that make it more reliable?  Perhaps.  Using St. Mary's in Dalton-in-Furness for records is a start.  There were other kinds of churches in the area, however, including Methodist. And the parish in neighboring Kendal also needs to be searched for Rumneys-Romneys. What can be inferred from no such records at all?  A recently moved family or group, from areas where living was worse?

  • What were the outside cultural pressures to convert, even to Christianity?  What else could they do?  Roma became Christian from earliest contacts.  See also History of Roma Roma converted to Christianity as well as other religions where they settled.  Long discussion and sources:  see History of Christianity: Roma. Note the reasons for the rejection of them by the institutional church; and the forms it took. 
  • Conversion to Christianity also enabled many to continue a nomadic way of life, despite bans.  Call the movement from place to place a pilgrimage.  That worked, and probably had deep religious roots as well -- pilgrimage was a sign of piety for anyone.  Read one's story:  Camarque, France. See

f.  How does this chronology and exploration add to a conversation of a family's possible roots, and politics.

It began with specific family members and their relationship, not focusing on the Rumney name other than to show that it was consistently used by the Rumneys until the mid 19th century, when it became Romney. See 

It has expanded. The issue is relevant to politics, to the degree that a willingness to be transparent is in issue.

Transparency is a pivotal issue. Secrecy, exploitation, or lay out the facts and then discuss.

DNA.  Done. It is what it is and it isn't, as with any of us.

3.  From that, next thesis:  
The current Romneys may or may not be related
 to the 18th Century portrait painter, George Romney.

 We are vetting claims that our Mitt Romney is related to the famous 18th Century painter from the same town of Dalton-in-Furness, another George Romney.  See bio at  Perhaps so.  His father was a cabinet maker.  He started out apprenticed to his father, but at age 21, re-apprenticed, this time to a portrait painter. See Dalton at

There are multiple Johns, Georges, Anns.  I cannot find records before St. Mary's, to find Appleby forbears, as noted in,_George_%28DNB00%29, but Appleby was then and is now a focal point of Travelers, and the famous horse fair.  See

Does this connection to Appleby, to a George Rumney who may be the George Rumney the father of John Rumney, suggest a connection to other ethnic groups.  No answer. For another day, search

Is Painter George related to our Mitt? 
"There is little in the public record about their (Mitt Romney's family's) English roots." See Daily Beast.  
See . The geneological expert, as listed for the information at Daily Beast, is historian James Walton, at Cumbria, England.  He would be the one to go back to. Does he also do Westmorland?
  • This possible connection to the American Mormons:  It is a "fresh curiosity" for him, declares Walton.  Yet he says there is a relationship between Mitt and the 18th Century portraitist. See site. What is the evidence other than a surname?
  • Why this late interest?  If there had been a connection, wouldn't the area of Dalton have been interested when the earlier George Romney the Great was doing such great things here? Why is Walton in gear now for little Mitt?  Tourism?  Grandeur?  Retrospective recall and adjustment?  Or valid geneology that simply was overlooked.
So, as usual, we vet.  Walton may be right. BBC fills in many blanks, but not all. See  Follow dots.

We are reading records of St. Mary's and three related chapels (too far to get to the main church on Sunday, so chapels or smaller churchlets were set up scattered about) in the Parish of Dalton-in-Furness.  See, herein Parish Records. The records are easy to read, but even the record-presenters acknowledge that information may well be incomplete or erroneously transcribed, and spellings changed.  Accept that as true for most anywhere. And heritage:  Rumenea, Roman; Romany, Roma, Travelers; Romney Marsh, place.  Theories abound, see a limited one, too narrowly Norman, at


Nobody could stay a "practicing" Roma unless, as in the 18th Century, Roma could survive by working for people who knew them.  That appears to be George Rumney, with an agricultural background, Appleby, or even a free man owning his own farm, as there are indications of land ownership -- until confiscations.

Roma history:  Central to all England and its surnames and people.  Dalton-in-Furness.  Would Mr. Walton please stand up and show his sources for being definitive.

Then, Americans, sites like Answerbag are nonsense on this issue: starting with a recent set of people, not their heritage. See

  • Then, again Mr. Romney the candidate won't show his records, either, so is blind trust part of the water supply in Dalton? Are we supposed to take on Faith that big corporations are good but big government is bad?  How about controls on each.  
  • We are left with (go for it) DNA.  Even that has its difficulties, no easy answers, see the haplogroup discussion at Origins and Divergence of the Roma (Gypsies), American Journal of Human Genetics, at

Romney is a common surname, many around Romney Marsh, Rumenea was an old Roman settlement, and more Romneys around Dalton-in-Furness, see index to surnames and history at St. Mary in the Parish of Dalton-in-Furness,, herein Parish Records. These records include chapels at Ireleth, Rampside, and Walney.  See site. Records are acknowledged as open to flaw, error, mistranscription, see site.  A researcher is urged to go to the original-original record. And the Rumneys - a name for an entire group of Rumnichals, see

There are other Romneys of different background:  Roma, Romani, Rom'nie, various spellings for the same sound.  Travelers.  Gypsies.  Many lived at Romney Marsh, participated in or fostered or founded a horse-trading at Dalton-in-Furness.  A history of their own.

Other sites connect the portrait painter George Romney to our later George Romney in Utah.  What do the parish records show, period 1589-1850 (Miles Romney and wife Elizabeth Gaitskell, both of Dalton-in-Furness, emigrated as Mormon Converts to America in 1837.  They were living in Preston at the time, see 

FN 2  holding pen.

FN. 1 Holding on to information pending further research. And incorporation or not.

  • Wikipedia, which always needs vetting, says that the parents of George Romney, the painter, are John Romney and Anne Simpson, so see the spellings go.  See  Vet Wikipedia. Who put in the Romney name instead? A way of getting away from the stigma of Rumney and Rumnichal?

  George Romney and an Eleanor Parke; *

And a  George Romney and a Sarah King -- the one producing Miles, who converted to Mormonism and came to America with his wife

  • 1806  - Baptism, Miles Romney July 15, 1806, born July 13, 1806, son of George Romney and Sarah
  • 1808 - Baptism, Thomas Rumney, son of George Rumney, house carpenter, and Sarah
  • 1811 - Baptism, Eleanor Romney, daughter of George and Sarah
  • 1813  - Baptism Anne Romney, daughter of a George Romney, a joiner (carpenter) and Sarah King
  • 1813 - Baptism George Romney, son of a George Romney (house carpenter) and Sarah

1781-1812  Baptisms -- Four Rumneys:
  • Anne Rumney (daughter of George Rumney and Eleanor, so the marriage in 1776 of George Romney and Eleanor Parke.  So that is not Painter George and his wife, Mary Abbot; but it is the child probably of George Romney, there with the Romney spelling and Eleanor Parke, who married in 1776. 
  • Eleanor, also of George Rumney and Eleanor; the Rumney spelling and Romney seem to interchange
  •  John (son of George and Eleanor, not Painter George and Mary), 
  • Thomas.
  •  And four Romneys   Eleanor 1811, daughter of George Romney and Sarah; George 1781, Miles July 13, 1806, Myles Park 1785

There is the Miles Romney we are looking for, but it seems to have no connection at all to the painter.  Is that right? The Rumneys have adopted the Romney spelling?
Reset the Start Button.  We get nowhere with the forebears of George the Painter. Is there any Miles, related to any Romney of note or of anything. We focus on Miles. When does he appear?

1806 -- May 28, 1806, a George Romney, House Carpenter at the parish of St. Mary, married a Sarah King, spinster of the parish.  

1806 -- July 15, 1806, a son, Miles, is baptized, son of George Romney (note spelling) and Sarah King.

Did eyebrows rise at the timing?  Shotgun marriage in the era of whatever they used then? That is not the point to us now, but it speaks to the era. What was the rank of the Romneys. Was anyone landed?

This Miles is the one our Mitt connects to.

So there is Miles Romney baptized July 15, 1806, two days after he was born. But is he related at all to Big George the painter?  Who were his parents, anyway? 1813-1832 -- No Miles baptized. 
  • Miles married Elizabeth "Gaitskell" in 1830 and then they came to America, as converted Mormons. 
  •  There is a Bridget Gaitskell baptized 1795; Betty Gaitskill baptized 1809, Jane Gaitskill 1804, Elizabeth Gaitsgill 1783.

Who are Miles' parents? The ones from whom Mitt hath sprung.

No Rumneys listed.

Is the earlier George Rumney this new George Romney?  Again, spellings are not dispositive.  No Rumneys listed.  Click on George Romney:  he was a house carpenter at the parish of St. Mary's.  Sarah King was a spinster of Dalton.

But this George the Carpenter who married Sarah King in May 28, 1806 would not be the parents of Miles who was born July 13, 1806 without eyebrows being raised (were they?) and baptized in 1806?  It could have worked.

Burials --  Five Romneys, Eleanor 1789,  George 1793, another George 1802, Margaret 1781, and William 1806
Baptisms -  Elizabeth Rumney 1833

Marriages -- Agnes Romney 1841, Ann (no e) Romney spinster of Dalton 1830, Eleanor spinster of Dalton 1836,

And Miles Romney, bachelor of Dalton, 1830 married Elizabeth Gaitskell, spinster of Dalton.  These are the husband and wife who heard the Mormon Missionary and converted. The preacher was one Orson Hyde.



Burials - Five Romneys, Betsy 1858, George 1859, Margaret 1859, Miles Park 1859, Sarah 1861

Tuesday, July 24, 2012

No Background Checks at Vote Shows. Voters Want Gunners' Rights

Voters Want Gunners' Rights 
First Amendment Covets the Second

1. Vote- gifting in the parking lot,
2. Voting permits good for five years;
3. Simple change of address information;
4. No background checks at vote shows, the alternative to poll-place voting.

Trompe News.  Dateline Neverland.

TALKING HEAD:  Across the country, peaceful marchers are calling for change:  change in their rights as voters (First Amendment), to expand into areas already enjoyed by gunners (Second Amendment).  Voting has yet to be found, by a rational legislature, to carry the same danger of Death and Accident and Violence as follow guns.  Nonetheless, there are more restrictions on qualifications to vote than qualifications to ready-aim-fire.  Some existing background and waiting periods as to guns are, of course appropriate to guns and not to votes, see FN 1, a sample State (do a search for Federal counterparts). Such gun-specific provisions, obstructing the totally free carry, however, are properly unique to firearms and would not carry over to obstruct voting absent further documentation.

Otherwise, no gun control? no voter control.

1.  Gifting.  For example, gunners in many states can go through the checks needed, if any, to possess, purchase, carry, lick, fire, their firearms; and then go out in the parking lot and give the gun to somebody else, who then can do as he or she likes, including dash to Mexico. See overview at Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms site at; and a local view at

Recently, Attorney General Holder was castigated in many ways because some 2000 American guns ended up in Mexico. We are aghast! How could that happen!  Mr. Issa! Shame!

 Ignored in the Issy Fit is the fact that 98% of the guns ending up in Mexico from American gun boutiques, had nothing to do with Fast and Furious -- some 68,000 illegal guns from the United States, also ended up in Mexico. See Andrew Cohen, The Atlantic, "The Real Scandal of Fast and Furious,' at

So, gifting guns. Alive and well in the blow-up industry; and voters want it, too. Meet the requirement for eligibility, then give it to persons unknown. Turn Santa, shown here at the coat of arms of one Frederic de Gingins. What is Santa afraid of? Is that a voter? Ask Gingins.

Right to gift the gun.  Voters want the same right to gift as gunners have.  Get on the voting list, then go out in the parking lot and pass that right on to somebody else to vote instead of you. A simple statement of transfer would suffice.  The new vote goes in, and you, outside now, sit this one out.  Right to gift the vote.  Fine.

2.  No registrations; just get the permit to vote and it will be good for 5 years.

There will be no late-day changing rules on qualifications so that a full color holographic image of you (available 50 miles away on Sundays between 1-1:10 AM) is required, embedded, with a chip, on a pink plastic card, in order for you to vote.

See registration and permit provisions for guns, Connecticut at FN 1, from  Move?  You just update your address as you go. No new birth certificate needed.

3.  Undocumented immigrants on the citizenship track can vote, if Courts get to that in time.  Right now, states may vary on whether undocumented immigrants can have firearms.  If they get the right to arms, then they also would get the right to vote.   

3.1.  Are you an undocumented immigrant?  Your status will vary with the state. As to gun rights for such immigrants, one lower Federal court says no, but others may say yes, see  See FN 1 for Connecticut (still looking to see rights of the undocumented in CT, this site not addressing the issue yet).  There may be tweaks for immigrants on citizenship tracks, however, see

3.2  We are confident that the NRA will approve gun rights to everybody, because then they make more money, and can take it and parcel it and offshore it so only a teeny part gets taxed here.  Big corporations are always better than government, and better yet, there is no accountability so far.

Again, the restrictions of some states on checking who wants eligibility may be appropriate because a gun can kill you.  A vote cannot.  It isn't even on paper any more, in some places. Can't even make a paper airplane out of the thing.  So no reason at all to impose that on voters. So why impose any of it? The photo ID on a certain form that it takes long time and cost to get, and the office may be closed anyway.  When gun people have to register their guns and selves, without unsupervised transfers of any kind, we'll talk.  See details for your own state on how some rights of gunners might be enjoyed to free up the voting process on the street where you live


FN 1.   Connecticut on Guns. 

A.  Rifles and shotguns:  No permit needed to possess, purchase or carry, and there is no registration of them.  There is no licensing for owners.  The waiting period for selling (see handguns section B) is waived for people with a valid CT hunting license, reservists or active military.

So:  If votes are at the same level of interest as rifles and shotguns, then anybody can vote.  You just have a waiting period before you can sell your vote.  Does that apply to legislators?

B.  Handguns (pistols, revolvers): Need certificate of eligibility to buy. That takes a
  • background check from the FBI as to criminal record, the person then takes a 
  • gun safety course (who gets that money? the ones in the industry creating the danger?) and 
  • pays a fee (who gets that?), and 
  • gets fingerprinted, then 
  • the eligibility is good for 5 years.  Whoopee.  Go out and rob a bank in those 5 years, then lay low?  No, the certificate 
  • allows the purchase, but not to carry.  
To carry: You need a permit to carry,and that means
  • a gun safety course, 
  • have to be found "suitable" (what is that?) and that you do not intend unlawful use, and if you get it,
  •  you have it for 5 years. 
  • There is no registration.  
  • No sale or transfer allowed without application and there is a two week waiting period.  Do you also need approval back?  Doesn't say.  If you move, tell the Commissioner within two business days. Waived from the waiting period to sell: police, parole officers, people with a state permit to carry, or with a permit to sell, or who have a handgun eligibility certificate.  This goes on and on about rights in your home, no permit needed there, etc. etc and sites there at

So: If votes are at the same level as handguns, there are requirements and a certificate of eligibility.  Get that.

C.  Antique firearms.  Also exempt from B's waiting period and application form
D.  Convicted felons.  Cannot possess any firearm.
E.  Convicted juveniles, serious offense.  Cannot possess handgun (ok for rifles and shotguns?)
See site.
F.  Unlawful:  to sell or permanently transfer to someone forbidden to possess; or to someone under 21